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Post by ram on Nov 15, 2009 0:58:26 GMT -5
In anticipation of the release of J.J. Abrams's Star Trek on video next week, tonight I watched Star Trek: The Motion Picture again, which I felt was appropriate. Anyway, though I'm a fan of ST: TMP, that doesn't mean I think it's perfect. So, just for fun, here are some nagging questions I have about the film: - how is it that the Enterprise is the only starship in "interception range" of Vejur? Earth is the homebase for the Federation, and it's only got a single starship nearby? And it's not even ready for instant action? The refurbished Enterprise basically gets booted out of drydock with everyone crossing their fingers. Sounds almost like a bush league to me. Am I fundamentally misunderstanding how Starfleet operates? I mean, in the time Enterprise that worked out its kinks with the warp drive and all, couldn't another ship have raced to meet Vejur at maximum warp? Sure, I can see this as a necessary plot contrivance to get the Enterprise and Vejur on the same page, but it doesn't seem very convincing. - how does blasting an asteroid get your ship out of a wormhole jam? So if the Enterprise had nothing to shoot at, Kirk and company would have been up the cosmic creek? - during his illicit survey of Vejur's inner sanctum, Spock states that he sees images of planets, stars and "whole galaxies" stored in its vast memory. Planets I get. Even stars. But whole galaxies??? I think this is an example of the Trek screenwriters not understanding the scale of the cosmos. They just pulled this one out of their butts. Also, later in the film it is asserted by Kirk and Decker that Vejur must have re-emerged on the far side of the galaxy after falling into a black hole. That obviously contradicts the notion that Vejur was eating up whole galaxies if it was simply returning to Earth from the other side of our galaxy. - while in sickbay, Spock tells Kirk that Vejur "has knowledge that spans the universe." Uh, spans our galaxy, you mean. See above. But if Vejur did in fact roam the universe, then that brings me to... - in the group huddle at Vejur's base, Spock suggests that Vejur has reached the limits of its knowledge and needs to evolve, but it can't understand "other dimensions and higher levels of being," as Decker put it. So, you're telling me that a massive machine like Vejur never once came across cosmic entities like Trelayne or the Organians who might have taught it to understand such concepts? Meanwhile, a single measly starship like the Enterprise on a measly five year mission to explore one measly galaxy ends up bumping into transcendent, extra-dimensional beings and whatnot every other week? Clearly, Vejur was exploring the wrong part of the cosmos. Yes, I feel comfortable picking apart this movie only because my love for it is secure. ;D And feel free to pick apart my nitpicks. It's possible my arguments are baseless - it wouldn't be the first time. Also, feel free to nitpick about the other Trek movies or tv shows. This thread isn't meant exclusively for ST: TMP.  |
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Post by thomasallencummins on Nov 16, 2009 8:12:27 GMT -5
Okay, ram.
This sounds like fun.- how is it that the Enterprise is the only starship in "interception range" of Vejur? Well I usually say something like "the story is only as good as the writer who writes it" but suppose we give the guys a break and insert some unwritten excuses.
Enterprise has just completed a re fit that probably included some pretty nifty and advanced stuff. Stuff that Star Fleet may have decided would give said Enterprise an edge to combat the threat that other Starships couldn't. I mean they watched in horror as three Klingon capital ships were "vaporized" by V'ger so putting other, similar Federation ships in harms way, even if they were closer was probably a bad idea. I recall the statement "The new shields held" suggesting that Enterprise was indeed unique in the fleet in her defensive capabilities. - how does blasting an asteroid get your ship out of a wormhole jam? So if the Enterprise had nothing to shoot at, Kirk and company would have been up the cosmic creek? This is an interesting question which I've always made an assumption to the answer. It is a coincidence that the asteroid’s destruction coincided with the dissipation of the wormhole effect generated by the engine imbalance. The effect would have at some point abated when Enterprise finally slowed and dropped out of warp but not before the ship crashed into the asteroid thanks to the helm become non responsive.IMHO. - during his illicit survey of Vejur's inner sanctum, Spock states that he sees images of planets, stars and "whole galaxies" stored in its vast memory. Planets I get. Even stars. But whole galaxies??? I think this could be a case of misclassification. Suppose for a moment that a galaxy was defined as "10 or more stars..."
The idea that V'ger might digitize a planet or a star is plausible so what's wrong with 11 stars and calling that a galaxy? ;D
As to the universe thing...well...we don't fully understand V'ger so we're pretty much going to have to take most of this on pure faith. V'ger can travel the universe because he says he can. Or more accurately because Spock says he can. Spock clearly has an agenda that is never completely explained. - while in sickbay, Spock tells Kirk that Vejur "has knowledge that spans the universe." Uh, spans our galaxy, you mean. See above. But if Vejur did in fact roam the universe, then that brings me to... See above. - in the group huddle at Vejur's base, Spock suggests that Vejur has reached the limits of its knowledge and needs to evolve, but it can't understand "other dimensions and higher levels of being," as Decker put it. So, you're telling me that a massive machine like Vejur never once came across cosmic entities like Trelayne or the Organians who might have taught it to understand such concepts? Meanwhile, a single measly starship like the Enterprise on a measly five year mission to explore one measly galaxy ends up bumping into transcendent, extra-dimensional beings and whatnot every other week? Clearly, Vejur was exploring the wrong part of the cosmos. In this case I believe Spock mis spoke in some way. Or wasn't as technically accurate with his descriptions as we would like him to be. Remember he was speaking to humans (including we humans that make up the theater audience). He's also trying to make a point in such a way that he convinces Kirk to take action. That's what Spock does. He is the intellect. Kirk is the man of action. McCoy is the conscience. Spock provides the information Kirk needs to make a decision. I believe Spock knows perfectly well how to manipulate his captain into doing his bidding without letting on that he's manipulating anyone. Spock is capable of guile. He's proved it time and again starting with his actions in the two part STOS episode the Menagerie. Dude is playing Kirk plain and simple and our heroic icon of a captain falls for it. So does Decker. (I don't believe McCoy bought any of it but there's no evidence to the contrary) In any case the facts and omissions you point out are all valid, ram. ;D |
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Post by ram on Nov 16, 2009 15:04:12 GMT -5
Drat, those are pretty good answers! I hadn't considered that the real reason Enterprise was chosen for the mission was due to some advanced upgrades, though in hindsight that makes sense. I had assumed the Enterprise had simply been upgraded to match the rest of the fleet, not given special treatment. But yes, Sulu was impressed by the new shields. The Enterprise still got clobbered, but it survived. Regarding the wormhole, yeah, I can accept that their escape from it and the asteroid's destruction was just coincidence. It's just that the way the scene is played, it's implied rather strongly that blowing up the rock led to being free of the wormhole. Regarding the universe/galaxy confusion, I might be guilty of being pedantic. It's just that I expect Spock of all people to be accurate and precise in what he says. Spock manipulating the captain? Shocking...  |
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Post by thomasallencummins on Nov 17, 2009 7:56:20 GMT -5
Star Trek the Motion Picture's plot is loosely based on the TOS episode "The Changeling" which featured NOMAD. Similar to V'ger in that it was an Earth probe that had been altered by alien artificial intelligence and gifted with incredible power, it too sought out it's creator and found him/them lacking. The V'Ger story is much more expansive and dramatic but I don't consider it a better version of the basic idea. In the series episode NOMAD was drawn to Kirk personally because of a similarity between his name, James T. Kirk and that of NOMAD's chief programmer Jackson Roy Kirk. I preferred the very personal battle of wills between NOMAD and Kirk to the somewhat less focused issue of V'ger and humans in general. But that's really not nitpicking as it is commenting on a matter of personal preference.
Heh. I actually own the book "The Nitpickers Guide to Star Trek" though I haven't read it in several years. I think I'll dig it out and give it another go.
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Post by ram on Nov 19, 2009 20:25:49 GMT -5
I thought "The Changeling" was a good episode, too. But the more "expansive and dramatic" Vejur story, as you put it, is the reason why it resonates more with me. Er, I'll move on. You're probably sick of me raving about ST:TMP by now.
So...I've not read this "Nitpicker's Guide to Star Trek." All the questions I had about ST:TMP I came up with on my own. I'm sure that Guide asks better questions than me, but whatever. Now for some questions about Wrath of Khan:
- McCoy gives Kirk a pair of reading glasses for his failing eyesight, because Kirk is allergic to Retinax Five (whatever that is). But what about laser eye surgery? We already have that today.
- In ST: TMP, Kirk was a rusty admiral who re-discovered his true calling as a starship captain. In ST II, Kirk was...a rusty admiral who re-discovered his true calling as a starship captain. What I'm curious about is why Kirk would make the same mistake - accepting promotion - twice?
- According to Dr. Carol Marcus, there is enough food in the Genesis cave "to last a lifetime if necessary." Maybe so, but you won't take much joy in the food unless you're a vegetarian. Where's the meat?
- When Kirk and Carol enter the cave, we see from their perspective a source of light streaming in from above. Where is that light coming from?
- In the Mutara Nebula, the near-miss phaser and torpedo shots between Enterprise and Reliant cause the ships to rock slightly. But why would a spaceship be rocked by something that didn't touch it? It's space, there is no air to carry the vibration of a passing object. Yeah, I know this seems a minor thing when you hear explosions in the vacuum of space all the time in sci fi movies.
- Spock briefly mind melds with McCoy, saying "remember." Could you really download your spiritual essence to another individual in what amounts to a 1-second mind meld? I mean, that's a serious information dump. No, Spock isn't handing over his entire life's worth of memories, but his "spirit" must still be some tangible thing if Spock needs physical contact in order to transfer it to another "host" body. It's not like the Force in Star Wars. (And if it were, then it would be unimpeded by the radiation-proof glass barrier.) Anyway, I understand, for dramatic reasons, why it would be silly to show a lengthy mind meld at this climactic point in the story. I'm just saying a 1-second mind meld seems rather ambitious (to the point of ludicrous).
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Post by thomasallencummins on Nov 20, 2009 8:08:50 GMT -5
- McCoy gives Kirk a pair of reading glasses for his failing eyesight, because Kirk is allergic to Retinax Five (whatever that is). But what about laser eye surgery? We already have that today. Well it's quite simple really. In the year 2119 pre Federation Earth bans the barbaric practice of laser eye surgery, instead opting for a far more humane product developed by Dr. Richard Daystrom's great uncle. Dr. Daniel Daystrom of the New Brunswick Optics Research Institute which introduced the revolutionary "Eye Popper" device. As medicine develops over the next few decades Retinax replaces the "Eye Popper" as the standard treatment for crappy vision. Kirk who had a rare alergic reaction to Retinax, had many other options available (except the aforementioned banned practice of laser eye surgery) however Dr. McCoy thought it would be cute to give Kirk vintage eye glasses instead.
I hope that clears things up for you. ;D - In ST: TMP, Kirk was a rusty admiral who re-discovered his true calling as a starship captain. In ST II, Kirk was...a rusty admiral who re-discovered his true calling as a starship captain. What I'm curious about is why Kirk would make the same mistake - accepting promotion - twice? Clearly there is something missing in the timeline. I critical moment or circumstance that occured between TMP and Khan that forced Kirk to remain at Star Fleet Command as an Admiral.
Perhaps it was the idea that he'd deprive us all of the pleasure of hearing Ricardo Montalban say "Admeeral? Admeeral...admeeral...."
Frankly Kirk was stuck with the Admiral moniker until he was formerly busted down to Captain at the end of Star Trek IV so I don't think he accepted promotion twice as much as he had no say in the matter until Star Fleet saw fit to hand him the Smack Down for saving the universe for the 20th time.
Remember this line from Star Trek 7? "Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do *anything* that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference."- According to Dr. Carol Marcus, there is enough food in the Genesis cave "to last a lifetime if necessary." Maybe so, but you won't take much joy in the food unless you're a vegetarian. Where's the meat? See that's the genius of the Genisis effect. It rearranges matter at the subatomic level creating the previously unmentioned "Bacon Tree". You gotta love those crazy scientists that insist on using protomater in the matrix. - When Kirk and Carol enter the cave, we see from their perspective a source of light streaming in from above. Where is that light coming from? Um...you aren't supposed to ask questions like that. I'll pretend I never read that and move along.  - In the Mutara Nebula, the near-miss phaser and torpedo shots between Enterprise and Reliant cause the ships to rock slightly. But why would a spaceship be rocked by something that didn't touch it? It's space, there is no air to carry the vibration of a passing object. Yeah, I know this seems a minor thing when you hear explosions in the vacuum of space all the time in sci fi movies. In this case I'm guessing it probably has to do with the nature and aspects of a photon torpedo. The torpedo itself, once armed and fired, emits large amounts of energy in a build up to detonation. It is the expanding energy force waves that seem to rock the ships if they pass close enough to brush up against the sheilds. (I'm so full of crap it's not funny.) [/b] - Spock briefly mind melds with McCoy, saying "remember." Could you really download your spiritual essence to another individual in what amounts to a 1-second mind meld? I mean, that's a serious information dump. No, Spock isn't handing over his entire life's worth of memories, but his "spirit" must still be some tangible thing if Spock needs physical contact in order to transfer it to another "host" body. It's not like the Force in Star Wars. (And if it were, then it would be unimpeded by the radiation-proof glass barrier.) Anyway, I understand, for dramatic reasons, why it would be silly to show a lengthy mind meld at this climactic point in the story. I'm just saying a 1-second mind meld seems rather ambitious (to the point of ludicrous). I think I can clear this up by pointing out that Spock is just that awesome. See the transfer isn't taking place at the time of the mind meld, it happens after Spock dies. The mind meld is simply creating a suitable location for Spock's essence once it is freed from his body. Physical contact is needed for the mind melt to function properly but there is no physical barrier that can prevent said essence from being transferred to the pre arranged host/location at the appointed time. Dr. McCoy didn't lose his mental health until a noticeable time after Spock took a dirt nap on Genesis.Bring on the nit picking for Star Trek III: The Search for Kirstie Alley [/quote] |
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Post by ram on Nov 20, 2009 14:37:17 GMT -5
Wow, your explanation for Kirk's eyeglasses is even more complicated than the time warp thing in ST IV. Bravo! And Bacon Tree! That is just so wrong. No wonder Khan wanted to get a hold of Genesis. The Search for Kirstie Alley...good one! Uh, I don't have any nitpicks for the rest...because they're all perfect! Not. I just never got around to picking them over with a fine tricorder. If I come up with anything, you'll be the first to know. Oh, and you're quite correct that Kirk actually never stepped down from the Admiralty until he was demoted in ST IV. My mistake! |
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Post by thomasallencummins on Nov 23, 2009 10:58:56 GMT -5
Okay. Well I have a couple of thoughts about Star Trek III that I have always found troubling. FIRST: Travel and visitation to the Genesis planet is forbidden. Only the science team goes. Okay I'm cool with that. The planet needs to be studied to be sure. However the return to Genesis by a top Federation Admiral who was intimately involved is denied, vigorously, even when the stated purpose of the mission is more than enough cause to allow an exception. "The word is no, I am therefore going anyway." Kirk doesn't have enough clout? The Vulcan Ambassador doesn't have enough clout? WTF? SECOND: The "Galactic Controversy" that the Genesis planet has created isn't sufficient cause to assign any more than one poorly armed research vessel (U.S.S. Grissom) commanded by an obvious rookie or a complete idiot. (J.T. Estaban) WTF? Anyone hear of the Romulans? Klingons? Tribbles? THIRD: What of Valkris, Commander Kruge's girlfriend? She's seen the Genesis proposal tapes and Kruge for some reason doesn't trust her to keep it to herself. Or if he has concerns, doesn't beam her aboard his ship before blowing the two idiots she's with away? I assume this scene is meant to show how ruthless and dedicated Kruge is but it seems like an unnecessary waste. Even if Kruge isn't swayed by his feelings for her, Valkris is apparently a valuable Klingon agent. Besides. Who exactly is Kruge trying to keep Genesis secret from? Obviously the Federation created it. What kind of military secret is worth dying for if your primary adversary already knows everything about it? FOURTH: Probably the biggest boneheaded comment of the film. David Marcus announces that "Genesis doesn't work. I can't believe they'd kill us for it." WHAT? Isn't this the same guy who in Star Trek II said that Genesis could be perverted into a dreadful weapon? What does he think the Klingons were planning to use it for? FIFTH: What is the point of recasting Saavik with another actress? Robin Curtis' bug eyed portrayal of the character was fairly pointless. I don't really think Kirstie Alley would have improved Star Trek III all that much but I wouldn't have recast the character. I would have written a new character into the story. If Saavik was so popular that fans wanted to see her again I'm pretty sure 99% of that popularity was due to Kirstie. Just pair David Marcus with a crewperson from the Grissom. Saavik really has no connection to the project and is supposed to be in command training somewhere. It's just distracting for no reason. IMHO SIXTH: What is with the 300 year old Vulcan elder, that presided over the "Re fusion" of Spock to his "Katra"? That is a ton of lipstick! Must be logical in some way, right?  I got more. :-) |
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Post by ram on Nov 25, 2009 3:34:59 GMT -5
Holy Klingon shorts, I'm a feeble amateur compared to you. ST III is now a heap of smoking ruins, like the wreckage of the Enterprise. I'm incapable of an adequate response at the present time. |
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Post by thomasallencummins on Nov 25, 2009 7:18:19 GMT -5
Holy Klingon shorts, I'm a feeble amateur compared to you. ST III is now a heap of smoking ruins, like the wreckage of the Enterprise. I'm incapable of an adequate response at the present time. Sounds to me like you need to dust off your dvd of Star Trek III, ram. I promise that not only will you have responses to my points but you'll post 10 of your own. (Just wait until I get to Star Trek V) |
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Post by ram on Nov 26, 2009 3:17:09 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you need to dust off your dvd of Star Trek III, ram. I promise that not only will you have responses to my points but you'll post 10 of your own. I shall do that this weekend. But that means I have to watch it, too. Noooooooooooo! Just kidding. Looking forward to your ST V nitpicks. |
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Post by ram on Dec 7, 2009 3:27:52 GMT -5
Okay. Well I have a couple of thoughts about Star Trek III that I have always found troubling. FIRST: Travel and visitation to the Genesis planet is forbidden. Only the science team goes. Okay I'm cool with that. The planet needs to be studied to be sure. However the return to Genesis by a top Federation Admiral who was intimately involved is denied, vigorously, even when the stated purpose of the mission is more than enough cause to allow an exception. "The word is no, I am therefore going anyway." Kirk doesn't have enough clout? The Vulcan Ambassador doesn't have enough clout? WTF? I think this scene is meant to show just how impotent and closed-minded the Starfleet Commander really is (and maybe by extension all the top Starfleet brass). Impotent because, as he says, he can't be the one to "break rules." He's just a bureaucrat, instead of someone like Kirk who can actually make a difference. Closed-minded because he's unwilling to accept Vulcan "mysticism" even though things like the Vulcan mind-meld are, I would assume, pretty well known throughout the Federation. The scene shows us how far Kirk is willing to defy rules and rationality and trust in his instincts to "do the right thing" for his friend, and again why he's destined to be a man of action, rather than a paper pusher. This probably doesn't answer the point of your criticism, but, er, it's all I got. Well, maybe Starfleet brass also felt that Kirk's presence at Genesis would be a liability. Really, everyone - including the Klingons - should have been given a copy of Star Trek II to watch. Then they would know that it was all Khan's fault! I guess Starfleet reasoned - with careless naivete - that surely no one would come after a harmless scientific vessel. Someone obviously forgot to stick a white flag on the ship before it went to Genesis. This is just too good, man. I think "Kruge" stands for "knucklehead." His mom must have only taught him about nice Klingons. Um...for me, the dumbest comment in the film was from Scotty, after his automation system for Enterprise is overloaded by a hit from Kruge's ship: "I didn't expect to take us into combat, you know!" Come on, Scotty, you of all people should know better. Especially when you're on the freaking Enterprise and your captain is James T. ("Trouble") Kirk. The bug-eyed aspect of Robyn Curtis didn't distract me as much as her Vulcan ears. They never looked right on her, as though they were ready to fall off anytime. Oops, I'm supposed to defend her. No question that the popularity of Saavik was due to Kirstie Alley. I agree that they should have created a new character for Curtis to play. She did the best she could, but it was a thankless task for sure. I guess it shows that, just like on Earth, on Vulcan they too have elderly ladies who don't know where to draw the line (figuratively and literally) when it comes to applying makeup. Such vanity does seem out of place in the Vulcan way. Then again, mystical rituals involving transferal of the "soul" aren't exactly logical, either... Another little thing in ST III bugged me: when McCoy is at the bar trying to get transport to Genesis, but the funky alien dude refuses to go there because it's "forbidden." Well, geez, when has the law ever stopped smugglers and others intent on illegal activity? Are you going to let some silly Federation rule prevent you from doing business? The alien dude didn't know it, of course, but it's not like Starfleet had a blockade set up around Genesis. The fate of the Grissom showed just how laughably worthless the Federation's "quarantine" was. |
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Post by dANdeLION on Dec 8, 2009 13:19:23 GMT -5
Vejur? WTF? It's spelled V-Ger! And you have the gall to claim yourself a fan? |
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Post by ram on Dec 8, 2009 15:51:10 GMT -5
;D Hee hee...
"Vejur" is the way it's spelled in the novelization of the movie, before the characters knew it was really Voyager. So I was just going along with it.
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Post by dANdeLION on Dec 9, 2009 11:50:08 GMT -5
Hey, don't nitpick my nitpicking!
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